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Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
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Author:  discusshed74 [ 15 Aug 2015, 19:17 ]
Post subject:  Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
Hi, my last visit here was in 2013! I haven't been idle though. In late 2013 I collected and sowed English oak acorns and a couple of field maples. I now have a nice crop of small trees in their second season. Can you offer some advice on how I go on to develop these? They are currently in pots, some have 2-3 trees per pot (5litre) and need thinning out. So do I just let them grow without interfering for a few years or do I need to do something to them? When is the best time to re pot and what is the best feed to use?
Thanks for any help
Rick


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Author:  stymie [ 15 Aug 2015, 20:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
To grow them much quicker Rick, They should be planted into open ground. Preferably after incorporating some grit and bone meal into the area. We would like to see photos of your trees to help further.
Author:  NickB [ 15 Aug 2015, 20:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
We could do with some photos to advise on individual trees.

Native deciduous can grow very quickly, especially the Field Maple, so I would tend to advise growing on as quickly as possible during the summer months and then assessing the trees structure and pruning back over winter or early spring to establish taper, trunk line and primary branches.
It is important to assess when there are no leaves on because if you are not careful you will end up with a long stick which will need a major chop at some stage. You want to bulk up the trunk, but get some taper in there. This can either be done by cutting back to a branch and using that as the new leader, or using sacrificial branches to grow long and thicken up the area below.
Definitely thin them out to 1 tree to a large pot, and I would keep 2 of each species. Any fertilizer will do at this stage as you are wanting to promote fast, strong growth.

I, personally, don't like Oaks as they always suffer from bad mildew in my local climate which means the green leaves become a dirty white in late summer. You can try fungicides, but its all extra hassle.
Author:  discusshed74 [ 15 Aug 2015, 20:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
Thanks for the info. I'll have a look at getting some photos. We have a number of very large oaks around here, they don't seem to suffer from mildew. I take the point about 'stick like' some of them could be accused of being like that.
Author:  discusshed74 [ 16 Aug 2015, 11:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
I have added some pics to my original post. I have some other trees but these are fairly typical of them.
Author:  NickB [ 16 Aug 2015, 14:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
:1crybaby:

Uh-oh, looks like your 'Field Maple' is actually a Sycamore......
Author:  stymie [ 16 Aug 2015, 16:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
Yes, that one needs to be pruned back to the upward growing low branch to get some early taper.

My earlier post still applies to the Oak saplings, which are much more appealing as bonsai. Just get some girth into the trunks of all by putting them in open ground around the end of February 2016. Any deep tap roots could be removed at the same time to encourage a wide, shallow root system suitable for potting at a later stage. If a slate or something else which doesn't rot is placed just under the roots when planted out, this will encourage new roots to grow outwards which is what we want.
Author:  discusshed74 [ 16 Aug 2015, 17:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
Thanks for the advice. Sycamore - now I feel stupid, I should have known that. :132doh:
Author:  Brendan [ 17 Aug 2015, 19:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
With the oaks may I ask that you try this with one or two. This is a process commonly used for maples and I am trying it with a few of my own oaks and I really would like to have someone else trying it along with me.

In late winter/early spring when they are still leafless and dormant you choose one of the more boring long stemmed jobbies. Ideally it should have little or no side branching because you are going to poke the top of the tree through a tiny hole and there's no point in breaking off any brnaches if you can help it. . Without disturbing the roots you basically slip pot it into a growing bed etc. Then very gently expose the lowest part of the stem until you encounter the first root.

Drill a hole in a small tile, plastic side plate etc that is only just big enough to fit over the sapling from the top. I used a piece of laminated wood about 3 - 4 inches across. Also drill a bunch of holes around the plate to let water through. Gently work it down over the top of the sapling and get it to the lowest point you can - ideally touching the roots. It is important that the roots will be able to survive under the plate so make sure that they either stick out beyond it or that there are plenty of holes in the plate.

Carefully fill the soil in around the bottom of the plate and then add about an inch on top of the plate.

Now leave it for a full season. If the hole was snug enough the tree will swell a lot at the hole and might even throw out a few roots above the hole. This is the point of the exercise.

Don't try and look for results until at least early spring as oaks do not like their roots disturbed. In the spring gently check for any new roots and carefully splay them out across the top of the plate. Cover them up again and wait another season. Do this for a couple of years while the roots above the plate sprout and grow outwards. You should be able to achieve growth all around the base where it is swelling. If one root gets too long or thick you can and really should reduce it.

If there is no root on one side then, in the summer after the first leaves have hardened off, defoliate everything on the side that has roots and leave everything on the side that has no roots. You should find that there is little growth above the area where you lack roots.

The defoliation should cause the vigour to increase where you want roots - and that vigour should push out roots as needed. Check again in spring and repeat again if required for another season.

After 2-3 years you should have a remarkably thick trunk with radial roots - that is what i am hoping for. Once you have roots all around the top you have one more season to wait. This is when you chop the tree down to the height you want it. Oaks with plenty of roots will tolerate a big chop in early spring and throw out a load of new shoots in the summer. Let everything grow like mad that season.

In the next spring you can lift the whole tree out, cut off the plate and all the roots below it and you will have a very good piece of bonsai raw material that will be vastly superior to anything you would find growing in the fields.

If you have the patience to wait 3- 5 years this will likely be an extraordinarily rewarding mini-project (I hope). If not you have sacrificed an acorn and a bit of time...

I did this 2 ways. One was just a single tree. One was 3 trees really close together - I am hoping their roots will be able to fuse if I get them to fit nicely with each other.

I am sure there is a member who has tried this and maybe there is a better approach, but I was in a hurry one cold evening in February to get my collected oak shoots into the ground and that is when I hatched this bold plan. I have had to move them since then so I am sure I lost a season in growth, but next spring I'll do a post about this.
Author:  stymie [ 17 Aug 2015, 19:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Moving forward with trees grown from seed?
People have been known to grow trees pushed through an old CD in the manner that Brendan describes.
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